Witness:  Ms. Marilyn Gibson, Grandmother, St. Peters, Missouri

     I am also named on the divorce decree that if he cannot pick up the child, then I can, and so, I just want you all to imagine, and I know you have children, and I know some of you might have grandchildren.

     When you go to pick up this child and he's standing behind his mother and he's hollering and screaming, I want my daddy, I want my nanna, I want to go with my daddy, I want to go with my daddy, and you're standing there, and she's telling you, you cannot go, and it's my son's visitation. How do you turn and walk away? You go to the police. The police says the divorce decree is written wrong. Well, the courts and the attorneys took care of this. We didn't know, when he went for a divorce, that you had to have this spelled out, but, what's going wrong? What's happening to these children. The emotional state on them? I can tell you what's happening to Christopher, because I'm right there at first hand. He's being abused, emotionally, and physically. Social Services has been called four times to this family's trailer, where he lives, and it does no good. Twice, I have called, and they will call my son and say, well, we can't prove this. We've talked to them. Is Christopher lying every time, lying because he has nose spread out to here, and bruises on his cheek. Is he lying? Who's lying? Is the mother lying? No, I see it. It's not Christopher that's lying. But, they go there, they told me they didn't see the bruises. I've seen them at first hand. I'm the one that called 1-800, but now, when you call, it does no good. She leaves the children by themselves. We've even got it on recording. Christopher said, Nana, she was going to leave me at home by myself, but I ran out and got in the car. But, she left her boyfriend's little girl at home, because she called my son, when my son went to pick up Christopher and he wasn't there, where she told she was to pick him up, and he went by her house and this little child was by herself, alone, seven years old. Now, if she's doing that to another child that lives in that home, what is she doing to my grandson?

     He's requested many police reports. Who's fault is it? You know, like I said, is it the lawyers, the courts? He's had to report to go to the prosecuting attorney, and you know what they tell him, we have bigger cases to work on. They don't have time to take care of him, and when she goes to the police, the police will come out, and make him give back the child on Easter. His divorce decree says he gets him every other Thursday, every other weekend, two hours on Father's day. She gets him from 9:00, and then it's here visitation. He gets him two hours the child's birthday. He gets him every other holiday. In his ex-wife's interpretation, every other holiday means he gets him New Year's, Memorial weekend, and, Labor Day, and then he gets him Christmas because New Year's Eve, she gets him. Christmas Eve, she gets him.

     This is not, to me, the divorce decree is not written in his favor as you can see. Every other holdiday, this year, at Easter, his little boy came to him and said, daddy, I've never spent an Easter with you. He's been divorced for four years. Can I spend a holiday with you? So, it was my son's weekend for visitation, so, he left, he said, yes, Christopher, I'm going to keep you. It's my holiday.

     The police came out to his grandmother's house and told her if she was hiding my son and her grandson, great grandson, she was going to go to jail. They never looked at the divorce decree. They never took his word that it was his holiday. So, she gets by with it. I'm asking why? Why can't he? He goes to the police many a times. He doesn't get him on Thursday. They don't do anything. So, I think we need to change the law. We need to change the laws or we need to enforce them. I think there's laws out there, but they're not being enforced.

     On the 4th of July, it was my son's holiday. He went there to pick him up, and he went driving away with his son yelling. Well, he didn't go driving away. She did. She put him in the car. She had somebody holding him down, as this child is screaming and saying to her, it's my father's holiday, and can you imagine this child screaming and saying, I want my daddy, I want my daddy, and he's five years old, and he even told his mother, it's my daddy's holiday, not yours. Why can't my daddy have a 4th of July? You have had every 4th of July.

     Reading on beyond my notes here. When he went to get his divorce, the attorney told him it didn't make any difference what evidence he had against his wife's capability. It was nothing to do with his son, that he couldn't get custody, because in St. Charles County Court, they do not give the man custody of the child or joint custody. My son really needs joint custody or at least custody. This child, in June, of last year, had surgery on his ears. The ex-wife did not take him back for ear surgery check-up. When my son had him for two weeks' visitation during the summer, he called the doctor and got a doctor's appointment. The doctor balded him out for returning the child two months late, for getting his ears checked after surgery. This child had never had any of his shots. When my son was with her, he made sure he got his shots. After he left, this child had no shots. The pre-school that he was going to was ready to remove him from the pre-school when I went to pick him up that Thursday, they asked me, had he ever had his shots? I said, I'll find out. So, my son went to his ex-wife and asked did this child have shots. Oh, yes, I got him at Public Health. He went to Public Health to see if he had gotten his shots, and he hadn't. So, he, in turn, took the child and made an appointment to get his shots. When he has him every other Thursday and every other weekend, he does not have time to get all the necessary medical attention done. How can we make this fair for him? How can we change these laws so he doesn't have to go through this? He said one time when he went to turn in a report to the attorney, or to the police department, they made him feel like a criminal. He said they were asking why aren't you working with her? And, he said, I've tried to work with her. I've sat her down. I've wrote her letters and stating her to work with me to benefit for the child, and the child is Christopher that would need the benefit.

     What I'm trying to say is, the non-custodial parent can't get any help. Is this fair, or is this discrimination? We're begging this committee for your help, for the children, that wants their fathers in their lives, and asking the laws to be enforced so the court, please give rights to the fathers, that can't afford to go to court, because it costs so much.

     My son makes $7.75 an hour. He cannot afford to pay $35,000 to $40,000 to get his child that's being abused. How can we help these children. How can we get through to this court system? We need to help these children. We're now getting evidence against her. Every time she calls we have a recorder going, because if she threatens my son, we have it going. She does not provide new clothing. If he comes for the two weeks, he has two weeks blocked series during the summer and another two week blocked series. She does not give him clothes. If he comes for a weekend and he happens to go out of town and he forget to bring her outfit with him, to put on him to take him back  at six o'clock on Sunday, and he doesn't take back the outfit. She gets the police on him. The police comes to my door. If they can't find my son, they come to my door, and they're demanding her clothes back. How can we stop this? How can we?

     I feel, in helping my son and talking to others, that are having this problem, that is why there is a lot of dead beat fathers, because they give up, and they quit paying. I don't know how many times I've had to bring my son up and lift him up, to keep him going back to get Christopher. He wanted just to quit, pay the child support, and not go see him, and I told him, that would hurt Christopher, because as long as we're in his life, we're bringing him and having him, molding his life to his way, the right way.

     Something else I want to say, too, is two weeks ago, and I really will get emotional on this. A year ago, he had a little baby girl. My son made another mistake. He had a girlfriend that got pregnant, and two weeks ago, he gave up them rights, because he couldn't go through what he's been through with Christopher, and when we went to court, I had to give up my rights, too, as a grandparent, and I want you to know how hard it is, because we done so much with Christopher, and we've seen the abuse. If we decided this little girl turned a year old. We had to give her up. He didn't have the money.

     The Child Enforcement enforced $500.00, well, it wasn't quite $500.00, $295.00 for the baby, and $150.00 for Christopher. They took him back to court. He paid $200.00, and wants to pay $295. At that time, he was making $7.35, an hour. He has no money to live, plus, he was paying all the medical on Christopher. If she didn't pay a bill, he went around and picked it up, so Christopher could have the good medical he could have. So, he choose to give up this baby, because he's never seen it. He's held the baby four times, in a year, and he choose to give it up. It was probably one of the hardest decisions he's ever had to make. I'm sorry for crying, and we had to sign the papers, because he couldn't fight it. He had to go fight for Christopher, because he's being abused, and I want to thank you for listening to me.

      CASKEY: Any questions? Senator McKenna.

     MCKENNA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That's okay. I'm not sure we can do anything about the behavior that you discussed, but, from what I get from your testimony, is you think that there should be quick and easy access, if the divorce decree is not being abided by, is that correct?

     GIBSON: Right.

     MCKENNA: And, quick, easy and cheap?

     GIBSON: Right. I feel what it is, is he has made numerous reports to the police. They even know him by name, and it's holidays that we're having the worst trouble. Like now, he's in kindergarten. Well, his kindergarten doesn't start until noon, so Troy's visitation starts at 9:00 to 5:00, but it says in his divorce decree, if he goes to school. Well, the mother is saying he's going to school, and the police say, oh, yes, he's going to school, because you can't pick him up at 9:00. You've got to wait until 5:00, and I think the lawyers and the judges need to step back. Yes, they're charging this big amount of money, but they need to step back, and they need to take a look. I'd like for you all to see his divorce decree. He has joint legal custody, but, visitation is very limited. In fact, we have found out, he doesn't even have what they allow. He has less than they allow.

     MCKENNA: Does the decree spell out what a holiday is?

     GIBSON: No, it says every other holiday. So, the police say, well, it's every other holiday. Now, they knew he had him Easter, so, she had him Memorial Day. They wouldn't go the 4th of July and get that. Oh, no. Your divorce decree doesn't say, but the police had it on record that she made a report. She made a report that he didn't pick him up Memorial Day, but he didn't take him back Easter, because he said it's my Easter. I've never had him. This is one time I've got a weekend, and it's my Easter, because, he was going to take him back, but his little son begged him not, begged him, said, daddy, let's go hide. Let's go hide so mommy can't find us. So, that's why they went to my mother's house, and she's 81-years old, and they went to her house and told them, because my car was parked outside of her apartment, and they thought Troy was driving my car. And, they said, if you're harboring him, we're going to arrest you today. We're going to be watching this apartment. And, I went over and got her, because she can never drive, to come to my house for dinner, and my son showed up later, but, we live in St. Peters. She lives in O'Fallon, and the O'Fallon Police did call my house, and I told my son to return their call, and he said, it is my holiday, and they let it drop, but they made a report of it. The 4th of July, he did not get him. We went to make a report, they wouldn't even make the report. Would not send it to the prosecuting attorney. Well, you've heard what's said, the prosecuting attorney says, we've got bigger cases to do. It's a misdemeanor. It's a Class C Felony, when she doesn't give that child to him, but they don't do nothing about it. You wait, if Troy doesn't return him, Thursday is his visitation, what if he don't take him back? He's supposed to take him back to school, on Friday, at 12:00. And, if he doesn't take him back, he's arrested, but she can get by with it. Why?

     And, like one Thursday, she said he was sick. I went to pick him up because Troy had to work. I picked him up. If he had had Chicken Pox, I would have not taken him, because the benefit of the child is, the child stays with the mother if he's really sick. I said what's the matter with this child? She never answered. She said I want you to give him Tylenol at seven o'clock. I said, what's the matter with him. She wouldn't answer me.

     At nine o'clock, in the morning, on Friday morning, she's calling and saying this child doesn't go to school because he's sick. I don't want you to deliver him to school. At eleven o'clock, the St. Peter's police was calling my house, and wondering why we're not bringing him back. Now, it states in his divorce decree that he can take him to school, on Friday, and his school doesn't start til 12:30. But, the St. Peter's police was, and we had to go to the police station. Troy had to take his divorce decree, show them, and tell them, I'm not bringing him back, because of this. And, she doesn't want him to return to school, because she drives a school bus, and she didn't want to go to school. That's my opinion, or she didn't want to drive, so she took the day off, using Christopher as an excuse.

     We're getting harassed by the police. If I don't return clothes, if we don't bring him back when she thinks we should bring him back, well, the divorce decree says, we're getting harassed by the police.

     DOUGHERTY: Representative Hollingsworth.

     HOLLINGSWORTH: I just have a comment. Mrs. Gibson, I think what you have explained to us is something that the doctor from Texas spoke of yesterday, that for every child who is being caught in the middle, that there is an entire side of a family that's being affected and that those relationships, your grandson's relationships with you and with your mother, or your husband's mother, how that's being impacted, and, I really am glad you came up here. I am very sorry for your heart, grandma. I know you've been through a lot. I did want to know how old Troy was?

     GIBSON: Troy is 26.

     HOLLINGSWORTH: Young man.

     GIBSON: Young man.

     HOLLINGSWORTH: Well, good luck. I know that this has been a hard day for you to come up and do this, but it's important, I think, for our committee to hear a grandma's side, of the pain that's caused you and your mother.

     GIBSON: You know, I wanted to read this, what he wrote, but I ended up having to tell it from my heart. You know, he wrote this, in this statement what he wanted to bring up, just high points of what he's gone through, but I couldn't even go by it. I wanted to go with what was in our heart, and I'm really glad that Troy is bringing Christopher up as to be honest. He will tell us that his mommy lies to him, and we'll say, oh, no, Christopher, she doesn't lie to you, and it's very hard setting on the other side of the table. But, hopefully, we're going to take her back to court, and, hopefully, I want the St. Charles County Court to know what we've gone through. I would like to go in court and testify what I've gone through.

     HOLLINGSWORTH: Thank you, Mrs. Gibson.

     GIBSON: Thank you.

     CASKEY: Really, I think what you're complaining about is the police enforcing a decree, and doing it one-sided?

     GIBSON: Uh huh.

     CASKEY: Do you believe that the police are accurate in their interpretation?

     GIBSON: I think, sometimes, yes, they are, but sometimes no, when they have it documented. I mean, we've been going every week that she hasn't given him. I mean, we're there every week, because we.....

     CASKEY: You've been blaming the lawyer and the judge, what about blaming the police, of their selected enforcement?

     GIBSON: Yeah, I think blaming the police is a good way, too, but also, I think in this case when we had Troy's first attorney, I went with him, I mean went to the attorney when he got his divorce decree. We claimed that we needed everything spelled out, because we even wanted the clothes issue to be spelled out in the divorce decree, that she furnish clothes, because we knew what type of person we were dealing with, and he said, oh, they'll never enforce it, so why should we write it in there? Well, I think things need to be changed - just because Troy doesn't have very much money, I think this is what I'm seeing. I'm seeing that attorneys will only handle the cases if they can get a lot of money with, and they're good at it, but if you've got somebody down here that's poverty, that is only making $7.35 an hour, they're going to hurry up, get that trial over, and get it done as quick as they can, and get the divorce written as quick as they can. They don't know that they're hurting these little children out here, and I see this is what happened in his divorce decree, because it doesn't spell out. It spells out every other Thursday, every other weekend, and every other holiday.

     Well, in his ex-wife's interpretation, like I told you, New Years is Troy's holiday. Her holiday is Easter. His holiday is Memorial weekend. Her holiday is 4th of July. His holiday is Labor Day. Her holiday is Thanksgiving. So, that means he'll never get them holidays the way that divorce decree is written, but that isn't how it's interpreted. It should be every other, means every other. If you have him on Easter one year, Troy should have him on Easter, the other year. But, the police are not interpreting that. They're going with her.

     CASKEY: Thank you, very much.

     GIBSON: Okay, thank you.