Witness:  Mr. Robert Pilger, Director, Parents as One, Springfield, Missouri

     DOUGHERTY: I'd like to ask everybody to make sure they fill out a witness form. Please proceed. Introduce yourself, and where you're from.

     PILGER: My name is Robert Pilger. First of all I'm here, not only as a father, but also a director of an organization, that our goal is basically for the children's best interest, and the best interest which consists of both parents, not really a winner or loser, as far as custody dispute, but as far as to support and educate, as far as individuals in reference to possible rates that  they have, of going through the trauma of divorce, which, basically, you know, a divorce, so many people are running off of emotions during this time, instead of really off reality.
 
    And, to start it off, I'd like to address one of the issues of the Children's First Program. The Children's First Program is out of Belleville, Illinois. As the director, as well as I've had roughly around 39 complaints that was filed with the Children's First Program, with the Burrell Center, Behavior Health Center, in Springfield. From there, the same complaints were forwarded on to the Children's First Program, in Belleville, Illinois. The reason being is, as soon as it's mandatory through the courts, as far as the individuals participate, as far as in two sections like what Larry Clifton and his wife stated, that you sit there and watch video tapes. Basically, the video tapes show whether it's the mother or the father, they bring a new individual as far as into a relationship. It's how you introduce the child into a new relationship. You'll see the father with a beer in his hand. You'll see the mother with a beer in her hand. And, to me, that does not address the issue of the trauma of divorce. There's many aspects of a divorce. First of all, the biggest goal of you, the legislative body, of prosecutors and attorneys of society itself, should be to lower domestic violence. It should be to lower nonpayment of child support. Those should be the issues. In most individuals, as far as our tape, as far as in these classes, get no education at all. They watch video tapes that you could, basically, go to Diamond Video and rent the same tapes. They need support. They need education, because most of these people, that's all the education that they'll probably ever get during this trauma of divorce. They need somebody there as far as to basically stipulate, these are the behavioral problems, this is the reaction from a possible behavior problem which you might have taken.

     The custodial parent, themself, needs as much education, as well as the non-custodial parent of the do's and don't's as far as going through the trauma of divorce. There's too much vindictiveness of both parents that's going back and forth. At the same time, going back to the Children's First Program, I was contacted, personally, by the Children's First Program out of Belleville, Illinois, and because they like to put a mini-brief together, with my complaint, along with 39 complaints, the letter that I received less than a week ago stated that they are asking me to put together a 15-minute video and to use some of my members to highlight the trauma of divorce.

     A divorce setting is not to where a father goes and runs out and finds a new girl friend, or the mother. I mean, there's more to it. I mean, everybody is overlooking the concept of a deadbeat dad or a deadbeat mother. I mean, you need to get to the root of the problem. Nobody is scratching at the root of the problem, as far as in divorce, and what the problem is, it's behavior. You address attorneys in a time of need and a time of trouble, and at the same time, your attorneys put you into an adversary position. Why? Because it's financial gain. The more that they can turn around and put in an adversary position against your spouse, the more she can you, the more you're in an adversary position, the more money the attorneys make. I mean, as far as a director, as a father. I mean, I know I wish in my circumstance, as well as my heart goes out to these fathers, if there was a mediator put into a position that on immediate filing of the divorce, that a mediator was appointed, and, as far as, I listened to you people. I listened to other seminars that I give. Who's going to pay for it? Okay, is that what the worry is? Is it who's going to pay for what, or is stop so much dysfunctionalism in this country. Children are being stripped from fathers. Children are also being stripped from mothers at the same time. I, as far as this Children's First Program, really to me is just the start of a big movement, as far as it were, that we plan to do.

     As far as the videos, by supplying the videos. That will go national, as far as this video, and I would like to hit on several different issues as far, you know in this video of things that I'm discussing today. As far as the trauma of divorce. Most people can't afford $90.00 an hour to talk with s psychologist during this time, and it's possibly the only type of education and support that they'll ever receive, and, at the same time, if they're denied access, as far as to their children, who wouldn't react? Who wouldn't react. You back someone in the corner. A father, most times, is stripped of his livelihood, as a father, as a husband, and it's - I don't want to get off, really, of the subject, but at the same time, statistics will show that there are numerous, probably three out of four cases of divorce, receive exparte orders of protection. Okay, well, at that point and time, the custodial parent will use that, not only to keep them away, the Ex away from them, but at the same time, that keeps the Ex away from the children, and if he violates that order, that almost devastates the father from receiving custody, because of a violation of an order of protection.

     In Green County, there were 3400 divorces last year. There was 3200 exparte orders in Greene county. I mean, to me, that's appalling. What I would also like to discuss.....

     DOUGHERTY: Could I go ahead and interrupt you and ask a couple of questions, if I could?

     PILGER: Sure.

     DOUGHERTY: Those statistics don't have anything with the fact that you're so close to Branson, does it?

     PILGER: No, maybe because it's so close to Christian County.

     DOUGHERTY: The question I had for you in regards to the comments about mediation and education. Were you here yesterday, by chance?

     PILGER: No, Sir. I couldn't be here.

     DOUGHERTY: One of the suggestions by one of the judges was that we might look at what Michigan does, which, as part of their court process, they have individuals that work, who are given the task, I've forgot what name they use, to work with mediation right upon filing, and also a case manager, case worker, problem solver, after divorce, too, but, it's immediately upon the filing. They have the ability, and some courts mandate it, to deal with educational program and then the mediation, and that the child support system, itself, pays for that. One of the judges here, yesterday that talked also, that he's doing that voluntarily in his own court. You will, if there's a dispute, go through mediation, unless there obvious circumstances which would prohibit that. It seems to be where you're going and I'm just going back to the question that we need to ask, changes that we should make, that's what you're suggesting, I take it.

     PILGER: Oh, yeah. If a mediator that is completely neutral, that's put in that position and he can sit down with two individuals before they're at each other's throats, and can sit down and possibly get if the marriage is over, okay? If the marriage is over, and at this point, the property rights need to be settled, custody needs to be settled, for visitation, whatever the case is, is to sit down across from each with someone as far as who could work out this problem.

     DOUGHERTY: Other questions. Representative Kasten.

     KASTEN: Would you believe we should do something in high school to teach parenting skills earlier?

     PILGER: Let me just answer this. We mold our children. The problem starts at home. Everybody wants to talk about how dysfunctional children are. We molded them. We made them. The thing is now is to try to throw a little bit of cogs in the wheel to slow it down and try to bring morals back, as far as in this society.

     DOUGHERTY: Yes, Representative Hollingsworth and then Representative Smith.

     HOLLINGSWORTH: Thank you. Mr. Pilger, you've indicated there were 39 complaints filed against the Children's First Program, I guess, right out of Greene county?

     PILGER: Yes, Ma'am.

     HOLLINGSWORTH: And, can you, first of all, tell me a couple of things about that program. How much does a litigant pay toward that program?

     PILGER: $25.00.

     HOLLINGSWORTH: $25.00. And, how many visits or sessions? Is it two or three?

     PILGER: Two sessions, and it's three hours, per session. But, this would be just a good place to start, as far as an
education.
 
    HOLLINGSWORTH: Well, absolutely. I, totally, agree with you, and we're hearing more and more about that. Education for the litigants is very, very important, but I think you might also recognize that even if you put litigants in a situation where they learn more about what not to do, even if it was a more intensified  counseling, would you not agree that you can still have a parent who's going to ignore the advice?

     PILGER: But, it's offered.

     HOLLINGSWORTH: But, it's offered?

     PILGER: It's offered. At least, now it's not offered to them.

     HOLLINGSWORTH: And, you said we should not be concerned with how to pay for it.

     PILGER: Are you talking about the Children's First Program?

     HOLLINGSWORTH: No. You're talking about further educational type of programs, correct?

     PILGER: That's right. No, no, no, what I'm talking about, in the Children's First Program, okay, instead of worrying about the father having a beer in his hand, and the mother having a beer in her hand, or bringing somebody into a relationship with a child, forget that. Let's get to the heart of the problem of the trauma that these people are going through in this divorce. Who cares if you bring in a new partner or not. I mean, it's probably the fact of life, as you're going to anyway. So, let's get to the divorce issue. Let's get to where, if the custodial parent has temporary custody until the time of divorce, okay, fine. Let's get them education on trying the best that we can, even though you're both in trauma of divorce, to give the non-custodial parent access. If you give him access, maybe there wouldn't be a domestic violence of - I mean further action is a reaction. And, at the same time, if we just offer this instead of this video tapes that are totally worthless, okay? It's just not - you walk out of church. You walked out of a church - how do I put it, so it comes out right? Filled, or do you walk out empty? These people are walking out of this empty, because there's no education.

     HOLLINGSWORTH: So you think that the Children's First Program needs to be improved, as far as the actual effectiveness and the material being presented?

     PILGER: Right, and I talked to the director there at Burrell, and she agreed.

     HOLLINGSWORTH: And, what is the connection with Belleville, Illinois? Can you help me understand that?

     PILGER: That's where the Children's First Program is out of, and, Belleville, Illinois, where - it's a national, Children's First Program is national, and they supply these same - these same video tapes go everywhere, okay? And, what was told to me, which the director Ashley, I'm pretty sure that's her last name, what she stated to me was, she said so many people that's come to her, they're not having an understanding of these tapes. Okay, then, at least if it's offered and people still - that's not going to take away from abuse. That's not going to take away from domestic violence altogether. But, at least the legislative body, the courts can state that we offered this to you, okay?

     HOLLINGSWORTH: Well, you understand that we've come from ground zero in this parental education, and I guess what I want to also say is, that there are still things in those vignettes, even if they do need to be improve, which things always can use improvement, but there are things in those vignettes that I have constituents tell me, hey, I never thought about that, and I'm sure there's a lot of people in this room, but, as far as addressing some improvements, I'm glad that you have taken the initiative, just the contacts that the company or whatever to make some suggestions. It will be important and maybe they will be revealing, the material that they offer to parents, and I appreciate you coming up here today. Thank you.

     DOUGHERTY: Representative Smith.

     SMITH: Mr. Chairman, to address the remark by Representative Kasten, she's talking about teaching parenting, and I think she's missed some remarks that a lot of us have made regards juvenile legislation that we believe that we teach everything in schools, except parenting, and, perhaps, if we would teach parenting in school, we could avoid a lot of juvenile problems and maybe some of the problems that we're addressing here.

     But, to ask the witness a question. I was a little confused by your remark about trying to address some issues before the parties get at each other throats. Well, if they're in court, they're already at each other's throats, and so, I don't how you would withdraw from that point. How do we do that by this education that you're talking about?

     PILGER: Well, I mean, that there is something that's not going to be stopped. I mean if the custodial or non-custodial......

     SMITH: You wanted to give them something before they got at each other's throats, but if they're in court and you're trying, okay, you......

     PILGER: Well, of course, if there's a filing. I mean, there's going to be an attorney to make the divorce filing.

     SMITH: Yeah, but.....

     PILGER: But, at the same time, the Missouri Bar.....

     SMITH: ........isn't that when they're watching that video that you're talking about. They're required to watch it.

     PILGER: They can watch that video. It's clear up through the divorce.

     SMITH: But, if you're going to expand that, what I'm saying is, they're already in litigation, aren't they?

     PILGER: Well, the purpose of an attorney should be to, at the same time, instead of putting everybody in an adversarial position, and instead of using everything for gain, is to try, again, I ask every .......

     SMITH: No, you're missing my point. What I'm saying is, if the court or whoever is requiring that they sit down and watch this video, at some point, and you're saying, well, the video is not, or I think you're saying the video needs to be expanded, or there's some type of education that needs to be expanded at that point. They're already in an adversarial position, because they're in court.

     PILGER: Well, that's correct, but at the same time, the people learn how to control their own lawyers.

     SMITH: Control their what?

     PILGER: You know, the client is supposed to control the lawyer. It should not be the other way around. At the same time, you ought to feel that you're not only, or were married to this individual, or that is, the children of both of you, there ought to be enough within both parties, as far as to accept mediation, even though, at first, there's going to be an attorney, if there's a divorce petition filed, but, at the same time, the mediator ought to be able to step in between all parties.

     SMITH: Thank you.

     DOUGHERTY: Senator Yeckel.

     YECKEL: Mr. Pilger, I had just of questions. You mentioned exparte orders. Are they issued as a result of drugs? Is that the only time they're issued?

     PILGER: I've heard. I've seen.....

     YECKEL: Why are they issued? I'm very new to this, because of the new law to me.

     PILGER: Let me just say, it's as easy as you, right now, stating that you are threatened, verbally, and from there, and that's understandable, because the court does not want to be responsible as far as anything could happen.

     YECKEL: Now, you mentioned domestic violence, and abuse. How common is that?

     PILGER: I'm sorry.

     YECKEL: How common is that?

     PILGER: Well, that's my biggest issue, is what I'd like to present to you.

     YECKEL: I mean, who is it, the fathers, the mothers, the custodial, the non-custodial?

     PILGER: As far as abuse?

     YECKEL: Yes.

     PILGER: In domestic violence?

     YECKEL: Two separate issues?

     PILGER: Yes, and I would say it's probably committed by both, and probably more so in the male figure, as far as being allegedly accused of it.

     YECKEL: Abuse of children or abuse of spouse?

     PILGER: Both.

     YECKEL: Okay, so it's just a violence wrought situation. Is that what you're telling me.

     PILGER: Right.

     YECKEL: Okay, then, we've been talking a lot about this mediation process. Would you feel that it should be mandated at divorce and carry the force of law, whatever is agreed to at that point, and then the person that violates the terms, the mediated agreement......

     PILGER: Most definitely.

     YECKEL: Okay. We've also been hearing that it's alarming to keep attaching criminal penalties to these things. How do you feel about that?

     PILGER: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you.

     YECKEL: People have testified a lot, yesterday, that it's alarming to keep attaching criminal penalties to these things, that's it's, perhaps, abusive thing to do. How do you feel about that?

     PILGER: Let me say this. If a woman can go to a court and get a divorce under mental cruelty, okay, which that is grounds for divorce in the state of Missouri, then she can be held accountable and responsible for her actions to ensure that the non-custodial parent, okay, if the non-custodial parent shall receive access to the children. If not, and has passed it, domestic violence, which  if you look in the paper work that I supplied to you, that is also classified as alienation of affection. Alienation of affection is child abuse. If a custodial parent denies access to the non-custodial parent, and if their studies has been completed, that alienation of affection is abuse, that it's in a passive state, then the custodial parent should be held accountable for not continuing the relationship, and if it does mean a misdemeanor charge, then let it be. And, that goes through no gender. That goes for male or female.

     YECKEL: Okay, so you've already talked to me about psychological abuse when you talked about it being so ramped.

     PILGER: Okay, which psychological abuse - psychological abuse is what  - your behavior, your feelings are normal. Everybody has feelings. It's your behavior. So, psychologically abuse is what causes behavior problems. I'm not playing a psychologist.

     YECKEL: Then, could you just please help me. Do you mean physically punching? Do you mean that kind of violence?

     PILGER: In reference to domestic violence?

     YECKEL: And, abuse to spouse and children. Or are you talking about the mind game. I've been on a school board for eights and I've seen that happen. Which are you talking about?

     PILGER: Okay, either/or, okay? As far as, I mean, if a father that's being stripped of his children, violates an order, because he steps on the property, which is a misdemeanor and he can go to jail and be fined up to $1,000 and one year in jail, because the custodial parent is sitting back using the children as pawns, in order to hurt the non-custodial parent. You mean to tell me they shouldn't be held accountable for this? That's like if I turn around and I came up to you, and I took your automobile, you're not going to do something? That's your children. And, you as a teacher, I mean, of seeing the children of stable relationships.....

     YECKEL: I'm not a teacher.

     PILGER: I'm sorry?

     YECKEL: I'm not a teacher.

     PILGER: I thought you said you were.

     YECKEL: No, I said I had been around education. I was on a school board for eight years, so I usually deal with the more serious cases.

     I have one questions. This is really off the wall. I just read an article about a Tennessee law. It's created something called a covenant marriage, and in a covenant marriage the people that enter into a covenant marriage are the only ones that are guaranteed the rights that you have. It's not an easy divorce to achieve. Would you like something like that? Would that think that....

     PILGER: It's hard for me to comment, but, at the same time, I think, through the, either through the legislative body, I mean, first of all, it's too easy to get divorced. It's too easy. I mean, it's like, you turn on television, you listen to radio, you read your newspapers.....

     YECKEL: No, I agree with you. It's much too easy, and I'm certainly very aware where you're coming from. How about just concrete suggestions, just for me, since I fairly new to this, that should be in our law.

     PILGER: I don't know how you could do it in Missouri. But, in Iowa, there's a form of counsel that parties that both parties have to go through, for a short period of time.

     YECKEL: For mandated counseling. Okay, anything else that you think would help?

     PILGER: Maybe like a certain, maybe if somebody goes to file, there's a certain cooling off period of time. They have to wait maybe. So, there's going to be pro's and con's to that, because somebody is going to be claiming domestic violence and I've got to get away from this guy, so there's going to be a rebuttal back to that, but if you dug into the circumstances, like the deep research that I get into, you're going to find out that there's been alienation from their children to the non-custodial parent which has caused the domestic violence.

     YECKEL: Those would be two things that you think would be a definite help, cooling off period, mandated counseling.

     PILGER: Right.

     YECKEL: Okay. Thank you.

     DOUGHERTY: Mr. Pilger, thank you, very much.

     Mr. Steve Rayper.  Is that correct?