CASKEY: Let me - you all are our guests here today, and when you demonstrate, then, that takes time, and although you may choose to acknowledge the presentations, go out in the hall and shake their hand, thank them, and say they did a good job. But, please bear with us, and no demonstrations.

     DOUGHERTY: Dr. DeVol, good morning.

     DR. THOMAS IRVING DEVOL: It's my pleasure to be here.

     DOUGHERTY: Pardon, use the long microphone there, and, as close as possible. Thank you.

     DEVOL: I'm sorry, I only have five minutes, but, I imagine you're happy.

     I've had a great deal of experience with legislators in dealing with families with problems, so you people here today are some of the great guys in the house, in this theater we've been talking about yesterday and today.

     I specialize in forensics. I work as a psychologist in areas where there's a court decision that impinges on the issue, especially in family relations, so, I'm always in the front. I worked in the Philippines half of my adult life as a psychologist, and half in America, and I can compare what happened over there and what happens here.

     Over there, there is no divorce, and it's paradise. And, here we are with the most wealthy country, perhaps, in the world, and sophisticated, but yet, it's atrocious to think how we're raising our children, and the children, are for sure the victims of the matter of consistent, and you legislators are here today to address that problem. You're trying to do something about it, and God bless you, more power to you.

     Dr. Warshak had plenty of research to back up what he said, and I'm coming from the point of view of Missouri licensed psychologist, practicing in the state of Missouri, and I can tell you that what's going on, nationally, is going on in Christian County, or Ozark County, or Taney County, doesn't matter where you are in the state of Missouri, or the U.S., I think we've got the same problems we face nationally.

     The idea that the father is the victim, is not the point that I want to make. It's the non-custodial parent and the child that's the victim. The non-custodial parent can get in the same situation, whether it is male or female, that many times fathers get into.

     What I'd like to get to is a point of my few minutes, very few minutes here, is dysfunctional families. Because, perhaps, I am a psychologist, then I run into more people, deal with more people who have more problems, but I see over and over again, divorce is occurring where one spouse is totally dysfunctional, or very dysfunctional, maybe borderline schizophrenic, or psychopathic, or on crystal. Seems like crystal is really ramped in the Ozarks right now, who goes through great personality transformations, and was a very conservative lady or man before, but after the divorce, is some kind of a runaround person, and not responsible, and then in dealing with the father that - usually, it's the father, doesn't have access to that system anymore. Maybe throughout the marriage even, he was in a compensatory role, or she was, compensatory, and then the children will be in a compensatory role, too, and I call those children PC's, parent-children. You know, they're parenting their parents, or the parent that's left. So, you could see on the video tape that I showed last night to one of the professors in Columbia, Missouri, that's left, doesn't look at the child during an interview, doesn't interact with the child. The child keeps getting in front of that parent, holding a coke from McDonalds. Sucking on a coke is an oral dependency symbol, you could say. That's where she's getting her nurturents, in front of the camera,  over and over again, when a doctor or psychologist was interviewing, but then when the father came into the room, the child sat down. The child was quiet. Was no longer hyperactive, and that father is going nuts, trying to get access to that child. It is, he, maybe, went a little bit too far and didn't get everything in the middle class way that I would recommend. Education is really an issue here today. If people would just lose some of the benefits of the laws in the state of Missouri they wouldn't have half the problems they have, but, legal education is hard to come by, but, the father, because he is irate and frustrated, maybe did something he shouldn't have done, he took the child and didn't have the privilege of taking the child one particular day, and got in some trouble for it, but, I can identify with his frustration and his instincts.

     So, I've opened up the talk. I think this is about five minutes, and if there's questions, I can respond.

     DOUGHERTY: That wasn't five minutes. Senator McKenna?

     MCKENNA: Could you, briefly, discuss what Senator Caskey started out the meeting with, and also Representative Smith, asked the last person who testified, do you have any suggestions for us, as a legislature, what we need to change, specifically?

     DEVOL: I think that the non-custodial parent so often gets into a conflictual relationship with the custodial parent, such that the pathology is what surfaces, such that it's destructive to the children, such that it's acrimony, not matrimony, so then, therefore, safeguards for the non-custodial parent are getting access. So, I've got a piece of legislature that would make it a misdemeanor, if access wasn't given and the father wasn't determined to be psychopathic, or criminally insane, and even insane people that are criminals that I've worked with get access to, kids will come to the prison,  Missouri State Penitentiary, or something like that. So, the issue of access is what I hope you're writing into the new law.

     DOUGHERTY: So, again, you're focusing on the thing that we've heard a lot dealing with a non-custodial parent, having whatever is in the court order, use the word, "visitation", have that enforced in some way through the courts, in an easier manner. Is that, basically, what you're talking about?

     DEVOL: Yes, yes. I do think visitation require, too. I'm speaking as a layman, not as an attorney, but it sure seems like that would be the appropriate word of the day.

     CASKEY: Also, do I hear that both you and the witnesses that preceded you are asking for a source for accurate, legal information?

     DEVOL: Yes, Sir. Yes, Sir. I preach that. First grade education.

     CASKEY: One of the judges, yesterday, mentioned the fact that, perhaps, that's something that we ought to look at, is a telephone access to someone that can give clear, accurate information on what the law is in Missouri, and that might be something that we need to look at.

     DEVOL: I teach a class for Peter Rea, sometimes, in Branson, Missouri, on Back to Basics, how to stay out of the court system, how to behave when you get to court, like saying, Your Honor. You can't believe how many people don't have that as a reflex, that would save them so much trouble, and they think that law and logic are the same, and, in Missouri, we think common sense goes so far, but the legal system is the legal system, and you have to enter that system with legal attorney or you've got to have a lot of knowledge, so, that's where it's at, in the way we express ourselves in the Ozarks.

     CASKEY: You say you teach for Peter Rea?

     DEVOL: A class, Back to Basics, yes, in Taney County.

     CASKEY: Judge Peter Rea.

     DEVOL: I'm sorry, Judge Peter Rea. Circuit court judge in Taney County.

     CASKEY: Yes, I know Peter Rea.

     DEVOL: Great. Excellent.

     DOUGHERTY: Yes, Senator Bentley.

     BENTLEY: Yesterday, we heard testimony all day on this issue, and one of the suggestions was that Friend of the Court type process, there's some process where when accesses to the children is denied and it's in the court order that you do not have to go back to the court, because that requires often hiring a lawyer and spending more money which precludes a lot of people from having that kind of opportunity. So, it seems to me, maybe, what we need is to find a way to punish those misdemeanors through some other resource than going back and waiting for a court hearing.

     DEVOL: Yes, yes. The ability to articulate that issue means that if there's prophylactics where the non-custodial parent would know that those are available recourses and you have passed some beautiful legislation here, but, 50 percent of the population probably won't even be aware of it. We take citizenship in the 9th grade, and that's about it.

     DOUGHERTY: Doctor, thank you, very much. Appreciate that, and if you have any written comments, please go ahead and submit to us or send them on to us at a further time. Appreciate your input very much today.

     Mr. Clifton, sometime or other, could you send this committee a copy of your divorce decree.

     CLIFTON: Yes, Sir, I'll be glad to.

     DOUGHERTY: Thank you, very much.

     The next individual listed on the itinerary is Mr. Robert Pilger. Is that correct?

     Good morning, and welcome.